Hi everyone!
I have this question. Many people think they have extraordinary abilities, exercising their mind and control over their bodies.
However, have any of you actually achieved anything concrete in this area?
I understand that so-called "magicians" don't want to brag about their skills, but maybe someone could assure me that they can do things that are not available to ordinary people?
I mean clear evidence, not gimmicks or something that can be explained by chance.
For example, I have heard of people who claimed to be able to summon rain. They may have actually done this, but it can still be considered a coincidence.
Interestingly, I've never heard of simpler things like setting off a candle by willpower alone, and it would seem that this should be easier than influencing the entire Earth's atmosphere and causing precipitation.
I realize that people who can't do anything but autosuggestion, and all their "magic" boils down to creating illusions that they themselves fall into, telling themselves that what is happening around them is due to them, are not real magicians, but merely people deceiving themselves for their own psychological comfort.
Please prove me wrong. I wish magic really existed, but I'm not the "have to believe first to get the prize" type of person.
Here no one will present you with strict scientific proof. You have to try various magic techniques yourself and see if they have any effect. Faith is not necessary, but concentration, visualization and experience with altered states of consciousness will help.
Alternatively, you can go to a real magician, shaman, quack or healer who has the necessary skills and have a "treatment" with him. Then you will be able to evaluate your own feelings and sensations.
The fundamental issue is this - can any of you perform things that are, for you, indisputable evidence of magic? I mean events that are not accidental, nor are they the result of your feelings or perceptions.
I like discussing with skeptics 🙂
I won't convince you, you won't convince me either, each of us will stick to our opinion. Someday we will meet again and see who was right - when we both die 🙂 .
If you dream of casting fire from the palm of your hand or similar tricks, I say right away that magic does not work that way.
First of all. I disagree with @Kobalt, I believe that faith in magic is important. Maybe not for simple results, but the small successes strengthen faith, and more faith leads to better results.
Second. Magic is mainly about operating coincidences so that they work in your favor. Aren't eternal favorable coincidences at least a little suspicious?
Third. Magic is "The art and science of making changes (in one's own consciousness) to carry out one's will, using means and methods that do not necessarily have an explanation in Western science." So don't expect scientific proof.
To answer the question: yes, as a "magician" I achieve magical effects. Whether it's easily finding a new job, unexpected money or summoning the spirits of the dead. However, I do not expect someone with atheistic views to understand this. But someday you will understand it, or I will understand your point of view.
I'm not a skeptic, since I'm the one who started this topic.
What fascinates me is that there is no spell or ritual that works 100% of the time. For me, it would be frustrating if magic itself decided whether or not to fulfill your wish. After all, if it is random, you might as well do nothing and have the same chance of success.
Magic is mainly about operating coincidences so that they work in your favor.
It can't work that way, because the world is so complicated and interconnected that it's difficult to predict or influence other people's actions. Imagine, for example, that a visitor is walking along a road and suddenly a branch falls on him, killing him. However, the branch did not fall because someone wanted it to, but because the wind blew harder. The wind, in turn, blew harder because a certain part of the planet heated up more and a pressure differential was created, and so on. At what point could some "magic power" be introduced?
My role ends at the very desire for his death.
I want him to die -> I do the ritual -> I wait to see what happens. I don't care what scientific explanation is behind, for example, a branch falling on him. All that matters to me is that the guy is dead = my wish came true = the magic worked.
If you have solid preparation, almost any ritual or spell will be effective. As much as one wants to refer here to Crowley's claims in his "Magic in Theory and Practice".
Well, that's where the catch is, Radko wants us to prove something to him, but he didn't want to see it himself beforehand.
The point is that the guy expects us to provide evidence for something he hasn't even deigned to investigate properly himself. He demands explanations and evidence from others, but hasn't bothered to dig into the subject himself first and check something on his own.
It's a bit like someone who wants to discuss quantum physics without having read a single book on the subject beforehand. He expects us to lay everything out for him like a platter, while he himself hasn't lifted a finger to understand anything.
Well, that's where the catch is, Radko wants us to prove something to him, but he didn't want to see it himself beforehand.
This topic is supposed to give me the whole picture, I prefer this to wading through a pile of books.
My point is that I'm counting on this discussion to give me condensed knowledge and different perspectives, instead of wading through a lot of literature. Besides, reading the books alone, without the opportunity to discuss or confront the experiences of others, would not give me a full understanding of the subject. A bit like with religious texts - reading alone without interpretation and discussion is not enough to truly understand their meaning.
If you have solid preparation, almost any ritual or spell will be effective. As much as one wants to refer here to Crowley's claims in his "Magic in Theory and Practice".
What if you wanted the candle to set itself off? As far as I know, you can even specify at what time it should happen.
I mean, if magic works for big things like someone's death, shouldn't it also work for something simpler? For example, if I wanted a candle to light without physically lighting it? And supposedly you can even set a time frame for this event to occur.
It's a bit like a test - if magic can affect complex events, shouldn't it also handle something simpler and more direct? And can it control not only the effect, but also the timing of its occurrence?
This candle will not light itself. Either someone else will light it "for us," or we will eventually move and light it ourselves.
As for the rest, unfortunately you need to do some reading on the subject first. Trying to prove something to someone who has no basic knowledge is a waste of time. It's like with scientists - they also do their research and discussions in their own circles, and ordinary people only see the end result of their work.
The point is that without some basic knowledge it is difficult to understand more complicated phenomena. Just as scientists don't explain every detail of their research to laypeople, you need some background to be able to meaningfully discuss these issues.
So magic is actually a way to make things happen your way? But you can't do something with it that no human could do?
In other words, the point is that magic helps you to influence the course of events, but does not give you some superhuman powers? You can't do something with it that is physically impossible for an ordinary person?
It's a bit like being lucky or being able to plan well, only it's on steroids? You can make things work out your way, but not break the laws of physics or do something that is simply impossible?
@radko OK, let me try to explain it another way:
And yes, and no. Because not everyone can use his Will in such a way as to influence the material world. Let's take this example with a candle. As Error said, our Will can be fulfilled in such a way that someone else will light that candle. If you're counting on the flame to appear out of nowhere, it won't - it's unlikely anyone will. Although there are cases of monks who even 80 years after death have an active brain.
What you expect is probably supernatural. We magicians don't do miracles. We do something completely natural, in accordance with the laws of nature and its mechanisms. It is simply incomprehensible to ordinary people. That's exactly the point.
That is, magic is not some supernatural powers, but the ability to use the natural laws of the world in ways that most people do not understand or seem impossible.
Well, let's recap.
You can train for years to be able to convince someone by sheer force of will to "light a candle," but you might as well just get up and light it yourself. Likewise with a good job - magic can get you one, but good grades will do the same.
Magic reminds me a bit of philosophy. It helps to better understand the world and oneself, to put one's life in order. Maybe it makes life easier sometimes than for others. But it doesn't really give you anything special that you couldn't achieve by other means.
Simply put, magic is more of a way of thinking and approaching life that can help you, but does not give you some superhuman powers. What you achieve through magic, you could also gain through other methods, though perhaps it would require more effort or time.
@radko I agree with you and now let's close this discussion.
This is why the knowledge of magic is so closely guarded and available only to the initiated.
Your last sentence indicates that this complicated nature of magic and the difficulty of explaining it to outsiders is precisely the reason why knowledge of it is usually given only to a select few and is not widely available.
I understand what you write, but I have a question: what exactly do these "magical effects" mean? What are the specific benefits of practicing magic? Are there any tangible results that can be directly attributed to magical practices?
From what they wrote here, it seems that magic helps you achieve what you want. That is, the scheme is: you have a desire -> you do a magic ritual -> what you wanted happens. But there's a catch - it's impossible to prove conclusively that it was the magic that worked, because every event can be explained as mere coincidence or happy coincidence.
As for this "exercising your own will," you ask, is it related to sigils? Sigils are such magical symbols that are supposed to represent your desire and help you realize it.
Magic seems to be a way of influencing reality according to your desires, but it is difficult to prove its effectiveness, because you can always find a "rational" explanation for what happened. And your question about sigils suggests that you are wondering whether they are the tool to realize this "will" in the practice of magic.
If you're asking about sigils in the context of sigilization from chaos magic - yes, this is one technique, but it's just the tip of the iceberg. There are a myriad of different methods, and they are not limited to simply casting spells.
Sigils are just one of many tools in the magical arsenal. Magic is a much broader concept and encompasses many different practices and techniques. It's not just about creating magical symbols or uttering spells. There is a whole range of methods that magicians can use to carry out their will or influence reality.
It's a bit like asking if cooking is just frying - yes, it's one technique, but the cook has many other methods of cooking at his disposal.
Self-will realization in magic is a process of manipulating opportunities. A practitioner of magic seeks to increase the probability of situations that are favorable to him or that he has planned. At the same time, he seeks to minimize the risk of undesirable events.
It can be compared to a game in which a magician tries to set the dice so that they fall in his favor. It's not about total control over reality, but rather about subtly influencing the course of events. The magician works to make favorable circumstances appear more often and unfavorable ones less often.
It's like balancing on a tightrope - the magician tries to tip the scales of fate to his side without breaking the laws of nature. His goal is to create conditions in which desirable outcomes become more likely and undesirable ones less likely.
Someone really good at magic could show you the evidence. Experienced magicians are usually calm and willing to share their knowledge. If it would help you, the master would probably reveal the secret. But beware - there can be pitfalls in the beautiful things. Experiencing it too early can make you stop desiring it. And without desire, you won't develop spiritually.
Magic is nothing special - it's simply actions in the real world that science can't yet explain. But in time it will probably understand them.
I point out that this is only my opinion. I respect the opinions of others and do not want to impose anything on anyone.
If I saw irrefutable evidence of the existence of magic, I would most likely devote my entire life to it. It would become my main focus and passion.
@radko It looks like you may be disappointed because the only way to really find out is through personal experience. Without making your own attempts, it will be difficult for you to get the evidence you are looking for.
Yes, I know, because magic can not be proven, you already said that 🙂 However, everyone says something different. Indraphoros wanted to let me know that the right person could prove something.
In the same way, I have read how many people on this forum, deny esotericism or elemental magic calling it stupid, topics to which 1/3 of the forum is devoted, and believe, for example: chaos magic.
I'm about to read some of the most important/popular books on magic, and I'm curious if they will negate each other.
This version retains your original point of view and personal references, showing your own observations, plans and thoughts on different approaches to magic.
In the case of chaos magic, the only really common element is the overall goal. Everything else is very flexible and depends on the individual tastes of the practitioner and what they already know and can do. It's a very personal and individualized practice.
Nevertheless, it's good that you want to delve into the topic by reading. I hope you will find this exploration fruitful and interesting.
@kobalt If you choose serious books on magic, rather than those aimed at beginners, you will notice that despite apparent differences, their basic premises will be similar.
In our discussion, we have focused on magic as a tool for achieving goals in the material world, which is only a superficial approach. Magic is actually part of our spiritual life. It is a path to the conscious realization of our own divinity. I understand that an atheist may not see the difference between magic and religion. Perhaps in reality they are not different? Magic could be considered a form of religion that places more emphasis on the individual than on the deity - one can practice magic while worshipping any deity or none.
Magic has the ability to defend itself against skeptics. Atheists, who don't even try, lack experience of such states as trance or visions, and thus will never know or understand it.
"Arcana loses its value when it is revealed in an inappropriate way."
This saying is still valid, because you can't reveal everything to every random person. Even the biggest secrets, if revealed to an unprepared person, will not bring any benefit to him or the secret itself. It is crucial that understanding be at the right level. This is not about judging people, but about the differences in approach to matter and spirit. Ultimately, each of us will achieve unity with the Absolute in our own way.
@rasphul Magic can indeed be understood as one of the divine paths. It is only one of the many paths available, and I can only speak of my own experience, without judging others. The feeling is like that of a child in his father's arms, where the world seems full of miracles and everything seems possible. For me, magic is like religion - a beautiful statement.
The world is really interesting. Believers often think they are superior to atheists because they have discovered the only right way. Atheists, on the other hand, feel superior to those who, according to them, believe in unrealistic things. There is no point in emphasizing the uniqueness of each of these positions by claiming that others simply cannot understand their uniqueness.
Sometimes I feel uncomfortable, as if in an area that favors dissenting views, because if I openly shared my beliefs, I would quickly face harsh criticism. As an atheist, I may seem out of place in a forum that requires belief in any phenomena. I approached the topic of magic from a scientific perspective, looking for evidence and specifics, but found nothing of the sort. What you describe is not the magic I was looking for, a magical concept that could stand on its own.
In fact, your magic is most comparable to one of many religions, each claiming to be better than the other, making belief in any of them meaningless. Please don't judge me - I'm simply acting like a common sense atheist.
It looks like I found the answer I was looking for and achieved my personal success, which was the reason for starting this thread.
@radko As I mentioned before, I don't judge anyone as better or worse. We are simply different.
There is no form of magic that will convince you to believe. There are no spectacular results. Congratulations on finding the answer you were looking for.
@radko Thanks to my experience, I managed to change my attitude towards atheism and materialism, so there's a chance that one day you too will look at it differently 😉
But seriously, assuming in advance that everything can be measured and tested is a mistake. If someone said that thanks to magic he cured a disease or caused it, it would be difficult to formally confirm it. Doctors won't issue papers saying that an illness is the result of magic. How would they prove it? No study will show magical influences.
To understand magic, you have to experience it yourself, because it is based on personal experiences. Although we try to sort out the subject a bit, scientists still treat magic as something ridiculous. Without their own experience, they consider it irrational.
P.S. You can also get into New Age topics and run tests that pretend to be scientific, like Kirlian photography, which is supposed to show "energy," and see how scientists react to it with amusement.
@radko, it's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of trial and error, statistics of successes and failures, and careful monitoring of the effects of your actions. To fall from a tree, you don't have to believe in gravity, and not believing in it won't save you from falling. A well-planned magical action, prepared with a specific goal in mind, will work even if the person performing it does not believe in it. This is the same application of knowledge as using the laws of physics and calculus of probability. Things like ghosts, demons or astral entities have no bearing on this. Although believing in them can help you get the right state of mind, just like fairy tales or religious stories. Belief is just a tool to achieve the right state, but it can also be achieved without it.
You don't have to believe in anything to achieve a goal if you plan well what you want to achieve, and find a way to bend probabilities - preferably your own way, tailored to your specific situation. You don't need any rituals or incantations. Sometimes all you need is hyperventilation, severe pain or lack of sleep. Belief in magic is sometimes overrated by some circles.
According to this logic, anything that we carefully plan and regularly practice by trial and error will produce some result that we can either confirm or reject. This applies to every area of life, not just magic. Although I believe that in this context faith also plays an important role.
Is it possible to create a precise and repeatable method for lighting a candle standing on a shelf?
It seems to me that it can be assumed that the cure of the disease may have been the result of some chemical or biological changes, such as accidental ingestion of an as yet unknown medicinal agent.
If we recognize that magic does not work completely at random, it means that it is subject to some rules. And if there are rules, it should be possible to define them.
