What is magic? As far as I'm concerned, it's kind of another way of trying to describe what we have really deeply ingrained in us. Humans have always, and when exactly it started I have no idea, had a need to name anything that seems illogical, that doesn't fit with how we were raised, depending on when we came into the world.
Magic is precisely all that is hidden in us, what we have not yet discovered and learned about ourselves.
In my opinion, magic is such ways to change reality and fate in order to achieve what we intend for ourselves, that is, to bring about one particular future among many possible ones. After all, every choice we make, every decision we make and every action we take affects what the future will be like, not only ours, but also other people's. To begin with, before we decide on any action, the future can have many facets - from a simple "will succeed/fail" to a whole host of different endings to some situation. Magic is meant to make what we think of actually come true, or to avoid something we wouldn't want. Sometimes we don't even have a precise plan, we just want something good or bad to happen to someone - and we take steps to make it happen. It doesn't matter if, because of our actions, someone suddenly has a heart attack, they have an accident or get robbed....
Magic is also the ability to manipulate fate, such a bargain, you give something to get something. When we invasively interfere with fate, we upset its balance. That's why it's important, for our part, to give up something as valuable as what we want in order to maintain that balance.
It is a whole set of methods and actions that lead to the goal.
What someone there wrote above is rather such mystical guesswork. Magic is something completely real and practical, it's action, not just dithering and naming things.
Each of us sees it a little differently, because everyone has walked a different esoteric path.
Different exercises, different understanding. If we all followed the same path, such as in school, it would actually be easier for us to agree on different theories or definitions of magic. But what you describe are already "paths."
I believe my thinking is similar to yours. Your theory is more elaborate, I myself was afraid to venture that far. In a nutshell, each of us chooses different paths, depending on the situation. It's not a simple choice between yes and no. We have many options, and our choice says something about us and our character. We influence the whole by these methods. If we use lower methods, we shape the paths according to our desires and demands.
It's a more elaborate system than the higher levels. The idea is that we don't choose the best paths, but with one of them something tells us that it might be a good solution. Its power determines the choice, but sometimes we argue with it because it's difficult for us to realize for ourselves. We know this and sometimes misinterpret the signals. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a higher issue that influences others and their paths, and leads us to where our destiny takes us. Then we really bend paths and reality, because the other person doesn't know about it and often correctly perceives signals that don't harm them, but can help us or others.
What is magic? For me, it is another attempt to describe what we have deep inside us. People have always, though I don't know when it started, had a need to name everything that is irrational and that doesn't fit into the system of upbringing appropriate to their date of birth.
I understand magic as mixing or changing reality or destiny by means of appropriate practices specifically tailored to.... well, let's say, a patient, but such a version of X, some adept.
The fact that adepts of different practices can use their "skills" for different purposes, but for me it's all still magic 🙂 .
And that's exactly how I see it. And not just for different purposes, but in many different ways. For me, there is no one-size-fits-all magic. There are a myriad of systems and various practices that are designed to change something in our world, whether in the spiritual or material realm.
If one were to look at it from the perspective of the absolute, the universe or even the creator himself, the matter looks similar, only we look at it through slightly different eyes.
We easily fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing, thinking of the universe as something with its own intelligence or point of view. This is a common mistake, we try to attribute human characteristics to things that are beyond our full understanding. The universe functions according to its own rules, which we try to fathom, but this does not necessarily mean that it is "intelligent" in the human sense of the word.
Exactly so. This is where the difference lies - some people consciously form their point of view, others simply observe the world, some people control their feelings and others are simply guided by them.
And as for the universe, it really does not need to shape its own point of view. The universe simply.... is. It exists outside our human categories and definitions, and functions regardless of how we perceive it or try to understand it.
And this is what can be seen as its "intelligence" - natural, existing on its own, not requiring human interpretation.
@rastar Agreed, in theory everything looks the same for those who respect every person.... But the reality is that not everyone does, not everyone has this attitude.
Exactly, since we use "other eyes," it is logical that the point of view must also be different. After all, otherwise these "other eyes" would not make sense at all, right? :>
And just like that, there comes a moment when going beyond our own previously limited point of view allows us to see things we were not able to see before. It is such a moment of enlightenment, when we begin to understand more, to see the bigger picture. 🙂
@nymphea this is the crux of the matter. Although we use "other eyes", the point of observation itself as such a place from which we look does not actually change. It is only our gaze, perception that changes, and how we interpret what we see. Depending on who is observing, they can take what they are observing in different ways and draw different conclusions from it. This shows how much our personal experiences, culture or even emotions affect how we perceive the world around us.
@rastar We often attribute human qualities to universes or other phenomena that are incomprehensible to us, because we simply find it difficult to imagine or understand them otherwise. We need to be aware that any personalities, intelligences or other characteristics attributed to them are only human interpretations of what lies beyond the reach of our understanding. This is due to the limitations of our imagination and our tendency to reduce the unimaginable to a more comprehensible, human form.
So we shouldn't attribute human characteristics to what we associate with humans merely by virtue of the fact that we are one of thousands of kinds of mammals and one of millions of species living on this planet. Given that there is probably life in our universe, as well as in potentially billions of other universes, the number of different species of beings could reach hundreds, thousands or even billions. The Absolute could just as well have the "mentality" of a cockroach, a tree or an amoeba - but even using the word "mentality" in this context is already anthropomorphizing something that is completely outside human categories.
@hrefna Well yes, that's an interesting way to look at things. Everyone has their own approach and methods with which they try to understand and interpret what surrounds them. Some actually don't look for "over the top" terms or definitions, they don't need to name everything that surrounds them. They prefer a more direct experience of reality, unconstrained by labels and definitions.
On the other hand, there are people who, like you mentioned me, develop their points of view, broaden their horizons and use definitions to better understand and structure reality. This often stems from natural human curiosity and a desire to understand the world we live in, which can take the form of an intense search for the theoretical basis of our experience.
Both approaches have their merits and applications in different contexts, and it's great that we can talk about it, understanding different perspectives.
I don't believe in any absolutes, only in what I experience myself. I act and experience, and leave theorizing or pondering to others who like it - I don't waste time on it. At most I sometimes try to describe what I have experienced in life.
@rastar Everyone is different from everyone else, completely. And that's a good thing, because otherwise we would be full of us like clones made for one copy.
I don't consider myself an expert, but I would like to share my thoughts. Of course, I'd also love to hear other perspectives 🙂
I think that magic has to be simply "felt".... you can't approach it too schematically or too fanatically (that is, as if it were something taken from a fairy tale). It is best to find the golden mean.
Magic has many faces...
Some will feel it strongly within themselves.... others, on the other hand, will look for it around them, such as in nature or wildlife (if that's what you meant).
The differences come from our own beliefs and views.... each of us is different and may perceive certain mechanisms differently....
Thus, magic can be both within us and around us.... it all depends on how open we are to what we want to experience ourselves.
@daffne Exactly, Daffne! I fully share this opinion and am glad I started this thread. It's a great opportunity to exchange experiences and perspectives on "feeling" magic, which is extremely important and inspiring. Learning about how others perceive and experience magic can greatly enrich our own understanding and practices. Discussion and openness to different points of view is the key to deeper understanding and discovering new dimensions of such a mysterious phenomenon as magic.
@daffne it seems to me that, many "types" of magic were started out of a desire for financial gain. The case of Aleister Crowley and his "Chaos Magic" is a classic example - even though he wrote many books and gained fame, in an interview he himself admitted that money was the motivation.
Similar phenomena can also be observed among modern "neo-shamans" offering all sorts of rituals for luck, cash, or love, often for not inconsiderable sums. The same goes for esotericists selling rune cards or creating new mythology, such as stories about how Odin was supposed to give runes to the Celts, which can be used according to one's needs. Often such activities are more about commercialism than authentic spiritual messages.
Let's consider what would happen if we stopped locating magic in specific categories and started seeing it as an "event."
A simple event that is difficult to explain rationally in a physical context.
Then one would understand that magic is not omnipresent, it is not within us.... It is a moment - it may last a fraction of a second, or it may encompass a lifetime - and results from the assembly of many factors.
These factors are often unconscious aspects, but other times they can be the result of deliberate creation.
In this case, there is the potential to create magic both within us and around us. It can be smaller or larger.... Shaped by millions of beings or individual entities, by nature and many other factors.
I'm glad we can have such a relaxed conversation here. Too much "sugarcoating" in conversations on online forums can be tiresome, and honesty and a little directness adds flavor to conversations.
Issues such as opinions on Osho's literature or doubts about the existence of chakras, while they may be controversial, are an important part of the discussion. The fact that we differ in our views not only enriches the discussion, but also allows us to gain a deeper understanding of the various points of view. It's worth discussing different concepts and theories, even if we ultimately decide that some of them are not reflected in our beliefs.
I decided to speak up.
Hrefna -
1 You talk about "seeking" magic as if it were a great suffering. However, if you didn't want to do it, you simply wouldn't do it. No one is forcing you (unless I am unaware of something). I also don't see why you are pouring out your grievances in a public forum.
2. have you ever wondered how much time the authors of scientific papers have eaten up, assuming that each of them has wasted half a lifetime to research and describe a topic?
3 You also wrote that it is good to strive for simplicity. I don't suspect you of hypocrisy, but don't you think that some of your posts are simply unnecessarily long? 😛
Of course I understand your annoyance when it's another person trying to take a shortcut at your expense, but maybe sometimes it's worth giving others a chance so that we as a human race can evolve. It would be interesting if each of us had to invent a computer from scratch, don't you think 😉 .
PS. I realize that the entire human race may not care about you xD
Magic is indeed a certain set of methods of influencing reality, but not necessarily through typical or easily explained actions. There is a risk of falling into the trap of thinking that if magic is influencing reality, every interaction, such as saying the way, making friends or even everyday activities like laundry or cooking, can be considered magical.
However, it is important to distinguish that not all methods of influencing reality are magical. A person with a trained eye can distinguish between acts of magic and non-magical ones. Not all practices that may resemble magic actually are. Sometimes even real magical actions may not have the expected effect for various reasons, and despite the use of a specific method, the expected change in reality does not occur.
It can also happen that one sorcerer does not recognize another person as practicing magic. This is not necessarily out of malice; if both people practice magic, but each uses different magic models or each follows a different path, they may conclude that "I practice real magic and he/she/it practices differently, so maybe someone is wrong."
Many magicians have passed through this forum, some are still here. They seem to know what the point is and are able to distinguish between those with genuine, practical magical knowledge and those with only theoretical knowledge or none at all. The group of the latter often consists of enthusiasts who want everything right now but can't make up their minds concretely about their approach. They usually fall into the New Age trend and after some time are expelled from it as supposed masters.
Often these "masters" crash into reality with their unrealistic theories, their ignorance of basic magical knowledge or the fundamental principles that govern magic. Their claims, too good to be true, are quickly tested by reality. Authentic magicians are often people who do not draw much attention to themselves, not fitting into simple definitions and not trying to please naive audiences. They know that magic does not necessarily equate to intellectual achievement or academic training; sometimes it is a set of practices inherited from generation to generation.
In the context of magic, the principle of "something for something" is understandable. Sacrifices made to gods or spirits seem to confirm that every magical action carries a price. Did people in the past realize the full implications of pulling magic strings, affecting the entire web of fate? This question remains open, and is as important as the laws of conservation of mass in nature or the even fall of rain on the good guys and the bad guys, although the latter are often able to avoid the consequences.
@Hrefna, I see that you have a wealth of theoretical knowledge from reading numerous books and analytical skills. However, I wonder how your erudition translates into mystical practice. In my opinion, although you use logical arguments, you may lack a deeper, real understanding of mysticism. Your approach, while astute, is perhaps too harsh, tending to metaphorically scare you with razor blades and grenades, while you keep only an ineffective cap behind your bosom. Perhaps you should soften your tone so as not to incite unnecessary fears?
@bies It seems that when someone chooses such an area for scientific activities, which at the same time is their passion in life, this should translate into a clear advantage in life. If one already chooses an activity, it is worth following the principle of doing it to the best of one's ability, or not touching it at all.
However, it is possible that people who are constantly looking for ready-made solutions, or users who return under new aliases after bans, are unable to understand this principle and the general importance of authentic engagement in their chosen fields.
- Could you tell what benefits your practice of magic has brought you? What have you gained from it?
- Are you satisfied with the results of your practice? Did the magic meet your expectations? If so, what were those expectations?
@iliarad You are admittedly asking Hrefna, not me. My practice is not so long, but I can tell you that when it is difficult to find other solutions to an issue, it is worth reaching for unconventional methods, namely magic. When has it been useful to me? In various situations 😉 But the results have varied.
@iliarad at it is easier to "gain" something for others than for oneself, because it is easier to bear the cost from one's own life for effects in the lives of others than in one's own. Therefore, questions about the effects of my actions should be directed to those who have asked me to magically intervene. This is simpler than choosing between success and failure in different areas of one's own life. For example, at the expense of leaving the profession I was practicing, I helped an Acquaintance move from the final reserve places to the third place of the list of accepted students in a beleaguered field of study, which by analog methods would have been impossible without bribes or special applications. The Friend got into these studies in another city, but the goal was to enable him to stay in his hometown by shaping his Fate accordingly. By the way, I would like to add that the Acquaintance took the old high school diploma and is from the yearbook for which universities usually reserve only 1% of places.
For me, one of the gains was calming my neighbor, who had been causing me problems for twenty-odd years since I moved to my current apartment. For the past few years she had been struggling with a benign but troublesome brain tumor, and I applied the right bindrun so that she would stop harming me. How to achieve this goal I left to Fate.
This can be interpreted as a matter of self-motivation. The person in question may have already had the potential to make these changes, and my "help" may have mainly been to strengthen his belief in achieving this goal. This reinforcement of belief in one's capabilities and one's own strengths can be crucial, and it is often the strong belief in success that translates into actually achieving it.
I'm refreshing the thread because something has gone quiet and that's a shame.
The fact that someone believes in magic or not makes no difference at all to whether magic works. It's the same as with gravity - you believe in it or not, you're drawn to the ground anyway.
And as Hrefna wrote, it wasn't about any motivation for action there, such as getting a good exam. From what I understand, the exam has already been passed. That whole jump in the list must have been related to something else, huh?
@wiedzmin You seem to have your beliefs about the influence of faith and intention in the practice of magic, which is quite an interesting point of view. You argue that it is a strong belief in what one is doing that can affect the effectiveness of magic, as in the case of people who speak words without conviction and are not taken seriously.
As for comparing earth attraction with the influence of the psyche in magic, these are two different processes. Earth attraction is a physical phenomenon that works independently of our beliefs or intentions, while magic, as you suggest, is based on the psyche and here already our beliefs can play a big role.
As for evidence or numbers showing the effect of intentions on physical interactions such as gravity, science does not provide such data, because gravity operates according to fixed laws of physics that are not related to our intentions. On the other hand, by showing that by eating 1kg of apples you increase your mass and thus increase the force with which you are attracted to the Earth, you are using a funny example that actually illustrates how the laws of physics work, but it is not necessarily related to magic per se - it is more an example of interaction with the laws of nature.
The @blues tide can take place even if the person being acted upon does not believe in magic. If the ritual performer is competent and knows what he is doing, his actions can be effective regardless of the belief of the person on whom the actions are performed. This underscores that the power and effectiveness of magic is not always dependent on the subjective beliefs of the person receiving it.
As for belief in magic, as you mentioned, Terry Pratchett in his books often refers to a phenomenon he referred to as "cephalology" - the knowledge of how beliefs and perceptions affect reality. In his world, people's beliefs can materialize and shape phenomena, showing that in literature, and sometimes in reality, what we believe can actually affect our experience of the world.
But can a person who "knows what he's doing" be a skeptic? One might think that she is rather something of a deluded optimist, if she has any doubts about the end result. Nevertheless, her initial approach must be fundamentally optimistic.
@bies Are you able to differentiate between a wizard and a person affected by spells?
Considering that you are using the principles of psychology, one of the sciences that often contrasts with the assumptions that govern magic according to some of us, this blending seems possible.
As for the aforementioned "magic apples," this seems to be a logical trap caused by pulling from the understanding of the general statement that magic is a form of action.
Magic is action, both on the mental (psychological) and physical levels. Everything starts in our head, and in order for the head to work in a certain direction, some work needs to be done. Personally, I have never practiced magic, but I focus on studying my own mind. However, if I were to try to influence events, I would first gather "energy" or "power" through concentration, connect at a level where I think we are all connected (or maybe I would just eliminate distracting thoughts, filter out unnecessary considerations) and only then would I proceed with mantra-style rituals, repeating in my mind what I want to achieve in reality. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what "system" you follow - whether it's swinging a sword or mixing herbs - what's more important is whether the practice has allowed you to develop certain skills and whether it's accompanied by confidence.
Moreover, in my opinion, magic is something quite limited. If something was achieved through magic, then theoretically it was already within the capabilities of the person on whom the magic was used, just as Rastar says - magic is not.
@bies Hello after a long time!
I would call this certainty "intention," and someone else of our acquaintance called it "will." I would also add "intuition" to it.
I myself have had to practice magic several times under completely improvised conditions, so that those watching me would not notice that I was doing something unusual. The effects I was getting then were just as effective as those I was getting quietly at home in a ritual space. Knowing the gist of a particular technique, I could do it by pretending to just sit quietly, rather than using physical paraphernalia.
The crux of the matter is to dig into these "doors to the creation of reality" in the mind and learn to skillfully open and close them.
The key is to distinguish where your individual approach ends and what has been adopted from others begins.
I want to emphasize that the purpose of this discussion is not to undermine someone's knowledge, because it is valuable, but to draw attention to what is the determining factor here.
I also believe that encyclopedic knowledge in this context is less important, although it is important. And as you mentioned, the consequences of a failed ritual are not determined by incorrect linguistic execution, but by how we use this "magic" outside of the ritual itself.
That is, how we use our will and mind is important.
